The Grit & Grace Leadership Podcast

Navigating Peaks & Valleys: Mastering Team Leadership with Gail Banack

• Jen Kelly • Season 2 • Episode 9

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In this revealing episode, join us as we navigate the rollercoaster of leadership with Gail Banack, a seasoned retail executive with 19+ years in retail. As SVP of Merchandising at Indigo, she transformed Indigo's Kids and Baby sectors to unparalleled success in North America. From the unprecedented growth in the toy industry spurred by the pandemic to the depths of navigating a major data breach, Gail shares her unfiltered journey through the extremes of corporate leadership.

This episode is more than just a story of personal triumph; it's a roadmap for current and aspiring leaders facing the complexities of guiding teams through both explosive growth and daunting slumps. Gail opens up about the essential skills every leader needs to master, from crisis management to fostering team connection and trust. She discusses the common pitfalls that both first-time managers and seasoned veterans can fall into, and how to navigate them with grace and strategic foresight.


Whether you're a first-time manager learning the ropes or a seasoned leader seeking fresh insights, this episode offers valuable perspectives on adapting, inspiring, and leading effectively in today's ever-evolving landscape

Follow Gail on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gailbanack/


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Jen:

Today's conversation features Gail Bannock, a trailblazer with over 19 years in retail who, as Senior Vice President of Merchandising at Indigo, transformed Indigo, kids and baby sectors to unparalleled success in North America.

Gail:

So lucky for me, we had a great high, followed by a super low low, which was fascinating to see all in one go. So again at Indigo you know, in 2023, we experienced this breach and that was the lowest low.

Jen:

In this episode we discuss leading through both explosive growth and daunting slumps. Gail shares her unfiltered journey, offering up honest learnings, and we delve into the common pitfalls that hit first-time managers and seasoned leaders alike. Let's dive in. Welcome to the podcast. Everyone we are in studio with Gail and today we're going to dive into all things people team-related. You have a wealth of knowledge and background as it relates to retail experience and rising through the ranks at several different organizations. Before we dive into any of that, I'm curious to kind of get a little bit of your backstory. So, if you think back to some pivotal lessons and moments along your journey, what has really been some shaping and defining moments?

Gail:

I think the first time you become a manager is definitely pivotal, and I even believe that it's not the first time you become a manager of one person. It's actually when you get at least two people, because now you can talk about your team. I found, at least myself, I led differently the moment I had two or more people, and that's when you can start thinking on behalf of other people on behalf of in my case it was a department and really kind of you just change the way that you think as a leader. The second one I would say was again when I got a large team. When you are leading people, who are leading people, that again is a huge shift, because now it's not just about what you do, but how do you help people be leaders, which I found a completely different skill set.

Jen:

When you have tenure in your role, you see it all. You see explosive growth moments, you see headwinds, you see when times aren't so good in companies and you really have to learn how to lead people through a number of different scenarios. So let's just take the highs. You know as a leader, people always think those are the great times. They're not always that easy. What kind of lessons can we learn about what's important to lead people through explosive growth moments within an organization?

Gail:

Well, I mean, the first one that comes to mind for me was leading through COVID, which you know was very different for all of us and but for me, working at Indigo, leading a team running a toy department, nothing was better for toys than COVID catapulted the business. People, you know parents, are beside themselves trying to entertain their kids with puzzles and Lego and books, anything that they can get their hands on. And so the business really went through a huge growth period. You know how do you kind of keep people engaged and working as hard as you need them to, because of this growth that nobody saw coming, that came out of nowhere, while they're also going through these personal issues.

Gail:

And after a couple of weeks of working from home, I asked everybody to turn on their cameras and we conducted all of our meetings, days long meetings, on camera. And I can tell you after the fact, I had almost every single one of the people on my team come to me and thank me for enforcing that rule and saying that they were alone, they were lonely, they were exhausted and they were, you know, disengaged and they still had to work, but that having to turn on the camera was really huge courage as a leader at the time to kind of take control of the situation and say my team needs this, I need this, and we'll be better for it when you're going through highs and lows on a team connection and trust is like the mainframe.

Jen:

It's very easy to look at the results that you have to achieve, whether it's the numbers, the deliverables, the revenue, but budgeting in a practice, as a leader, to be always thinking what does my team need this week, whether it's connection, community conversation, mentorship, support. So when you think about the lows, though, like what are the principles?

Gail:

So, lucky for me, we had a great high followed by a super low low, which was fascinating to see all in one go. So again at Indigo you know, in 2023, we experienced this breach and that was the lowest low. I mean, obviously it was detrimental to the business because the site went down and the business well, even the stores went down. At first, you know, we were the last system to kind of come back, because there were other priorities in terms of making sure that we could sell product, that we could ship product, that we could have visibility into the distribution centers. So we were kind of sitting ducks for a while. But then, shortly after that, there was a personal attack on us because our personal information was leaked, and so first I had to tell my team that there was a breach. Nobody knew what that meant.

Gail:

The first thing that was fascinating to me was to see how everybody reacted very differently, including myself. So I have, through my own life experience, have a habit of working very well through times of extreme pressure, and my coping mechanism is not to panic, and I basically I get through it and I allow myself. You can't panic in a real emergency. You have to actually pull yourself together and work through it, and panicking is a luxury that you can have once the emergency is over, and so I, as a leader, I approached it in the same way as I do the rest of my life Not necessarily healthy, by the way but I basically managed very calmly. And that was not right for everybody. My degree of calmness was not what everybody needed and I had to adjust along the way because of the feedback that I was getting from some people on my team that my extreme level of calm, I would probably say, didn't match their level of panic.

Jen:

So they were interpreting it as sort of like you're not taking this seriously.

Gail:

They absolutely thought I wasn't taking it seriously, and also I have a very joking personality, and that didn't go over very well, and I learned a very hard lesson there to be sensitive to everybody's emotions. There was one moment in particular where I had addressed the team. I did not go well and I then was faced with a decision whether to apologize or not, and after thinking about it, I ultimately decided to apologize, which, as a leader, was a very hard decision to make. You know, do I apologize for my leadership style? Do I apologize for my approach? Do I apologize for who I am? Yeah, it didn't go well either, and that was also a lesson for me, because the apology wasn't enough, like why didn't it go?

Jen:

well, they were just upset.

Gail:

They were just upset. It wasn't about me, but everybody was reacting very differently and so there was really I didn't even know how to behave, but what I? The reason I'm happy with the decision to apologize was because that was true to me as a person and I feel like as a leader, that is the most important rule to lead with heart and to lead like you, like like you're a person, and these were people that I genuinely liked, that I genuinely, um, had you know hope the best for, and I had felt like I disappointed them or I had let them down. And again, with time passing, having talked to my team after that, they all kind of, when everybody calmed down and the pressure cooker kind of calmed down, they were able to say we understand now that you were, I had never been through a breach, I didn't know what I was doing and with time, they kind of understood that as well.

Jen:

So just that level of vulnerability and authenticity and not having to be stoic in that moment. How important was it to be authentic, plus informative, with every detail you had along the way.

Gail:

As a leader, you're expected to have answers or you're expected to say I'm not sure. Let me get back to you. There's nobody to ask, nobody knows. I can't even say that. I just have to say I don't know and leave it at that, which is very uncomfortable. People wanted answers, they had expectations on how Indigo should have, you know, actioned the breach. I think, all in all, I think Indigo did a great job and I think they were all. I think Indigo did a great job and I think they were doing trying to do the best.

Jen:

Well, you do a lot of mentoring now, so hindsight is always 20, 20. But you know what would be the takeaways that you would impart on a mentee today?

Gail:

I think, just in general, providing your, your leader, with compassion is good and remembering that there are people that hopefully they're trying to do the best by you and if you're coaching or advising a leader.

Jen:

What would you advise them? Just care.

Gail:

Just care for your people. I feel like you can't go wrong with that. If you care for your people, then you're going to be compassionate, you're going to be vulnerable, you're going to be authentic, you're going to give them what they need. And and then the second thing is I would impart on them how different people are and how you. You need to pay attention to one individual on your team who may be reacting one way versus somebody else who react was reacting a different way. I mean even just by age.

Gail:

I noticed people in our company you know very you know older people were scared because they didn't understand what was happening. Kind of middle-aged people were kind of the most easygoing because they probably had a fraud alert before and they know that nothing happened, and so they were a little bit calm, kind of like how I was approaching it. And then very young people were petrified because they're like, what if I can't get a house? What if I? You know, what does this mean for my credit and and so, and even within ages, obviously, people react differently depending on their personal circumstances and it's just a very personal thing, something that you wouldn't think, I didn't appreciate at the time.

Jen:

How personal this was the thing I'm learning from what you said, too, is just to not assume people are going to handle it like you. Uh, people feel the way you do and then even within that dynamic. So once you make those assumptions, it's like you have a composition of communication and a way to manage people that has to be different. It's when you have to manage people who aren't like you that you grow the most as a people leader.

Gail:

Oh my God, I couldn't agree more. Probably one of the biggest mistakes that I made as a young manager was trying to make my people me, yes, thinking that I not that I was so great, but that's the only thing that I knew how to do. I knew how to make this presentation my way, this pressure to just turn everybody into I'm an extrovert, so you need to be more extroverted and learning and this is a huge lesson that I've learned around just helping people be the best they can be, not me.

Jen:

How did you learn how to do that, though? Did you lean on resources, or was it just like a light bulb? You're like, oh, I see it now, like I have to tap into more of their strength, their communication style, their way.

Gail:

I think it actually had to do with my own confidence as a leader, okay. And I think when I kind of backed off to say, okay, I don't need to prove myself anymore, I'm good, I believe in myself and how I lead and you are interesting and good and smart and powerful in your way, and I just kind of observed them to see that their way of doing it was actually got from A to B. It just didn't take the same path.

Jen:

When's the moment we felt comfortable in our own skin to give someone else the space to be themselves?

Gail:

Yeah.

Jen:

Right, that's like that's the switch. Yeah, it's like I let go of the control because I trusted myself.

Gail:

It completely changed the way that I lead to understand. Okay, so what are you struggling with? How do I help you present yourself better? How do I help you advance? How do I help in the way that is going to work for you, Because trying to do it my way is not going to work.

Jen:

When we allow ourselves to be authentic and we see ourselves in our own authenticity, we can then see other people. A hundred percent Leading leaders. Let's talk about that dynamic. What were some of the early lessons in that journey for you? So?

Gail:

I think when you're leading leaders, you need to step up your communication to a whole other level. That's what I found, where you know it's one thing to find yourself in a conversation with someone and find yourself in a situation and then react and do whatever you do and say whatever you say. It's another to talk to somebody completely out of context and predict a conversation or predict a problem. So now I have to think about how are you as a leader? How can you be better as a leader? What is a scenario that you're going to struggle with or, you know, have to deal with? And then how can I tell you how to think, how to, what to say, how to approach it, what to try? And then not only that, but I then also have to equip you with multiple responses to multiple responses from the other person In that role you A.

Jen:

Your level of foresight down the road strategically has to be a lot sharper than in the previous roles. Then B, you almost have to create frameworks to help people make decisions yeah, right. And then you have to anticipate where their gaps make decisions yeah Right. And then you have to anticipate where their gaps will be yeah, it's like coaching on a scenario base. Yes, when you moved into that VP role, like, where did you see your growth? So if you were to kind of just define your growth through that chapter.

Gail:

Where did you grow the most.

Gail:

When I accepted the role of VP at Indigo, I was petrified because I had never been a merchant and I was about to lead a team of merchants.

Gail:

And what I what I love about that role was that it was kind of the first job I had where, as a leader, where I didn't know how to do their job, yeah, and so that inherently created a different dynamic, which I love because it allowed me to be the manager that I want to be and I wasn't busy training people and I wasn't, you know, up until then, every job I'd had. I knew how to do every single job there. I could do it better than anybody, I could do it faster than anybody, and so this was I had no choice but to be a very trusting, hands-off, you know, collaborative leader, which I love. As a VP, I was able to just focus on the people and my job was to develop the team, remove roadblocks so that was dealing with my fellow VPs and the other, the rest of the company and remove roadblocks so that they could do their job, but it didn't include actually training them on how to do their job.

Jen:

So, first and foremost, the minute you come out of I'm not the functional expert I have seen so many women struggle with that. Well, where's my value lie? Because I used to be the doer, I used to be the solver, and making that shift into that role through that period, you're like where's my value?

Gail:

Did you have that experience A hundred percent? When I came in, I had incredible imposter syndrome, like who am I to come in here and tell these people what to do, because I don't know the first thing about buying.

Jen:

It's very strange to come into a role where you're not sure what you're supposed to do, but now your job is like you're a force multiplier. So how can you make 10 people more powerful in their roles because of the? You know, the people who report to them and the great resources that they have at their disposal and innovations that they can unlock, and so?

Gail:

but the reason.

Jen:

I ask that is? It's just. It's a huge leap for people and when we're identified as being, you know, great IC or great deep in expertise, yeah, I know that's a hard one for folks. I completely agree. Yeah, what do you do for yourself to manage to a level of when the stakes are high, you can still remain clear?

Gail:

I mean, I have a very full life. I'm in a loving relationship. My husband is amazing. I have three kids and they take up a lot of my time. I have certain hobbies that I like to do that are strange and quirky, but they give me peace. What are they? Well, I love making photo books for my family. Oh, okay, and I laugh because it's basically I'm basically doing PowerPoint for fun, but I just love it. It's very much a creative outlet for me and I spend hours doing it and then I have something to show for it, which I love, and I feel like I'm passing on something to my kids that they'll remember forever, and we reference these books all the time to see what happened, when and how somebody looked and what they did, and so it, like, is a gift that keeps giving what you're talking about is very important.

Jen:

I think about women who are in high pressure roles, who have to think all day long and be very strategic with their minds. They have to like.

Gail:

How do we tap into reflection and creativity in a different way of generating self-generating energy unless we're doing things like this, Now that you're saying that, it must give me energy and I know it brings me joy and I know it relaxes me, especially me. I'm an overthinker. I think all the time. There's something going on in my head all the time, and so having that time to just think is this the right pink and should that butterfly be there?

Jen:

And you know. So where's your next version of growth? Like if you think about hey, I've you know. Look back in your tenure, look at who you've evolved into. Um, you look out in terms of your own personal growth or skill growth, like what excites you.

Gail:

Because I don't know what's going to happen next. I think the first step is going to be this what I was saying to you, like this time of yes for me, I'm just saying I'm saying yes to this. I love talking to you, I am saying yes to a bunch of other opportunities and just being open, letting the universe speak to me of what's next, and I hope that whatever is next, I know it will be, I know I will grow through it because I won't do it otherwise. I don't want to do the same thing. I very rarely have done the same thing and I enjoy that, and I enjoy that being a little bit uncomfortable about what I'm doing, and so I don't know, but I'm excited for it, yeah.

Jen:

Yeah, the nebulous new. It brings butterflies again. It brings a little bit of nerves in a good way, yeah, feels like you're, for me it feels, like I'm expanding into something new that doesn't feel comfortable.

Gail:

But I haven't.

Jen:

you know I don't have the playbook from you know 10 years to draw on, but I'm excited for that chapter of growth.

Gail:

I am too. I was talking to somebody the other day and I was saying that, in my experience, you absolutely take. You don't even know when you're growing. You don't even know when you're growing, you don't even know when you're learning, and it's not until the next job, or even the next next job, that you realize oh, that's what that was about. That was. That was good that I did that, and so I feel like, even though, to your point, even though I don't know what's next, I know that I will take the learnings that I've had and apply them somehow, in some way, to the next thing.

Jen:

Well, we've learned so much from your incredible arc and your career, and your personal wisdom too.

Gail:

Thank you so much. This was so fun.

Jen:

Thank you for joining us. Don't forget to follow us on Instagram and LinkedIn, where we transform the wisdom from our podcast into practical tips, tools and takeaways for your leadership journey. Find us at gritgracepodcast. See you next week.